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God Experience [Jun. 23rd, 2007|12:05 pm]
Agnostics.

kate_sara20
I meant to post this back in May, but things happen.

So like every year, chamber had to play at baccalaureate. This year we were able to leave after we played, but I was interested in the speaker: Mr. Dahl (Darbi and I are prophetic).

He started his speech with history (duh) and, of course, he put jokes in. I will admit that it was interesting. I appreciated how he didn't just stick to the Christian part of the ceremony, too.

However, he started saying things I didn't agree with. He said that if you believe that you're the only one who has control in your life, you're wrong. Then he went on to say that if you think that you are immature.

I think Dahl forgot that it's all based on experiences. He probably would say he has experienced God in his life. I, however, cannot say that. However, because I lack that experience, does that make me immature to come to the conclusion that since I have not had a God experience that I control my life? How does Dahl know so much? Does he have enough knowledge to call someone immature?

Then I came to wonder, how does one know when he/she has had a "God experience"? How do you know that something you cannot see, touch, hear is playing a role in your life? Since I've never experienced God, this whole idea makes no sense to me.

But does it matter if you believe God plays an active role in your life? If you believe, then you see events differently - "God helped me get into college." Or if you don't - "I got into college just by being myself". Either way, you're going to college: with or without God.

So perhaps God does play a role in my life. Perhaps he doesn't. In either case, I don't care. I'm just going to live every day as it comes, with or without God. Call me immature. It doesn't make a difference to me.
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maybe the world isn't full of stupid people so much as the world is stupid [Apr. 5th, 2007|11:50 pm]
Agnostics.

deathbydsch
Hey people,

Forgot about this thing with spring break and death in the family and what-not all has been hectic.

Over this semester many events in my life have lead me in a direction I've been headed for a while but haven't quite thought it to a T yet. So, I would like to slap bits of it on a page and see how it sounds.

My recent revelation came while sitting at a gig I played last Saturday for a silent auction fundraiser for a rich private catholic shelter your upper-upper class from the bad people (buddhists, black people, and protestants) school. I was sick just listening to them speak and watching them socialize. Just the way they dressed was enough to upset me a bit. After living in the city for a year my perception on the world has slid a bit. You never realize what a city is like till your in it. Until you've heard a guy threaten to shoot a guy over a bus pass and chase him off the bus at midnight. You see homeless people begging everyone for bus change and I once got threatened when I didnt give a guy change.

It makes the stuff you see on tv so much more real. When I go to that silent auction I think about the homeless guy I chatted with on the bus. If he were in that ritzy maple grove hotel, he would not know what to think. Looking at where these people are spending there money while millions of americans (mostly minorities) in the inner city are having trouble getting an education well enough to get them a job other than selling crack.

Then, my "these people are stupid brainwashing-their-children idiots" voice kicked in. The one that made me hate christians for a couple of years among many other people that I thought were dumb. Then I thought of the many things going on with people in my life lately and it struck me.

These are good hearted, nice, intelligent people. Yes, they are not bothering to step back from society and question their existance but most people never do. What sense does it make for me to attack their idiocy just because they dont question with the vigor that I do. I needn't be mad at them, I need be mad at the social construct that builds these unquestioning people to be as they are. These aren't bad people. They are good people stuck in a bad society. I may still fight for change and enlightenment but I neednt hate 75% of the population while I'm at it.

Acceptance. It makes you like more people.

peace.
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The God Debate [Apr. 1st, 2007|01:45 pm]
Agnostics.

kate_sara20
[Current Mood |contemplativecontemplative]
[Current Music |Change Your Mind - the Killers]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17889148/site/newsweek/

Read the whole thing. It gets better with each page.
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Belief Can [Mar. 24th, 2007|11:24 pm]
Agnostics.

kate_sara20
[Current Mood |contemplativecontemplative]
[Current Music |Universally Speaking - Red Hot Chili Peppers]

I love this song. It talks about blind faith, in anything, can be dangerous. Read it, and think about it.

Belief by John Mayor

Is there anyone who
Ever remembers
Changing their mind from
The paint on a sign
Is there anyone who
Really recalls
Ever breaking rank at all
For something someone yelled real loud one time


We all have strong beliefs and hold firmly onto them. Protests do nothing.

Oh everyone believes
In how they think it oughta be
Oh everyone believes
And they’re not going easy


We all have our ways of doing things and are reluctant to change or listen to others. "Blind faith."

Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword
Like punching underwater
You never can hit who you trying for
Some need the exhibition
Some have to know their trying
It’s the chemical weapon for the war
That’s raging on inside


Our beliefs can protect us by bringing those similar to us together. But it also creates problems when you try to press your beliefs onto others. Some people feel that they need to show their beliefs, while others just want to know they did something to help their cause. If they don't it turns into an inner issue with themself.

Oh everyone believes
From emptiness to everything
Oh everyone believes
No one’s going quietly

We’re never gonna win the world
We’re never gonna stop the war
We’re never gonna beat this is
If belief is what we’re fighting for
We’re never gonna win the world
We’re never gonna stop the war
We’re never gonna beat this is
If belief is what we’re fighting for


Since people are unwilling to reconsider their beliefs, nothing can be done to end the suffering that belief causes. There will always be the two people who have radical beliefs on separate ends of the spectrum with undying paranoia of the other. Belief cannot be beaten.

Is there anyone who
Can remember
Ever surrendering
With their life on the line


People will die for their beliefs.

What puts a hundred thousand children in the sand?
Belief can
Belief can
What puts a folded flag inside his mother’s hands?
Belief can
Belief can


Blind faith makes people forget reason and instead take on emotion. This leads to irrational behavior that someone in their right mind might not have done. In the end, belief can hurt and kill.

What's your interpretation? Love to hear it.
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Life and Death and Things In Between. [Mar. 5th, 2007|12:07 am]
Agnostics.

darbi_jo
[Current Mood |calmcalm]
[Current Music |Wings of Forgiveness - India.Arie]

Okay, so I read Tuesdays With Morrie yesterday and it really made me think about death. Not in an "I'm going to kill myself" kind of way, but in a "death is an interesting topic" kind of way. Kind of like hearing the clock ticking in French did a few weeks ago. I'm going to combine the two things into a rant that will go beyond death, I know that. All quotes are from the book.

In the time it took you to read this sentence, somebody somewhere died. A child just lost his beloved grandfather; a mother just lost the chance to watch her youngest child grow up. With death, experiences are cut short and people are robbed of the chance to live out their lives. Death is a natural occurrence, and it's one thing people can't escape. People live their lives in fear of death-- but why?

"Everyone knows they're going to die, but nobody believes it." People fool themselves, saying things like "I'm going to live forever" and "this isn't going to kill me." They fool themselves because they don't know how to deal with death. They don't want to die; they want their time on this earth to continue for as long as possible. They don't want their loved ones to have to deal with the grief and sorrow that death brings with it. So instead of accepting the fact that everyone dies, people ignore it. They don't think about dying on a daily basis; they'd rather just be invincible. This idea of being invincible isn't helping anyone. It's instilling a fear of death inside millions of people.

Fear is one way to deal with death, but "there's a better approach. To know you're going to die, and to be prepared for it at any time. That's better. That way you can actually be more involved in your life while you're living." If you constantly wake up and think, "I could die today," you might actually enjoy what you do. You might actually go out and try to help people. You might sympathize with people suffering on the other side of the world. You might actually learn to understand your emotions, and you might actually learn how to step away from them. If you are prepared to die, you will love unconditionally and you won't be afraid when your time actually does come.

Another problem with death is that "people act as if [it] is contagious." They don't like to see people dying because they think that they'll be next, that they'll come down with the "sickness" of death, that they'll never be able to live out their dreams. Seeing someone else's life end shouldn't worry people about their lives ending; it should just make it seem more natural. Because "it's natural to die... [and] the fact that we make such a big hullabaloo over it is all because we don't see ourselves as a part of nature. We think because we're human we're something above nature." But death is natural--10 out of 10 people die. It's just something people need to learn how to deal with better.

And when you do think about death, "it's more than the negative that you're going to die, it's also the positive that you understand you're going to die, and that you live a better life because of it." Once you realize that your time is limited, you might actually go out and try to do cool stuff. You might try to help people who will be there longer than you so that they can enjoy their time just as much as you enjoyed/enjoy yours.

The book also talked about how Morrie (the professor guy that the author talked to) could sympathize with everyone now that he was dying. He could read the newspaper and actually feel the pain of the people starving in Africa and the people being killed in Bosnia. Because he was also dying, he understood how they felt, and he wanted to help them. "Maybe death is the great equalizer, the one big thing that can finally make strangers shed a tear for one another." So if everyone, to paraphrase Tim McGraw, lived like they were dying, people might care more about each other, and they might learn to understand the pain and suffering that people go through. I don't know; I just thought it was a cool thought. "Be compassionate...and take responsibility for each other. If we only learned those lessons, this world would be so much better a place."

Enough about death; let's talk about life. "Life is a series of pulls back and forth. You want to do one thing, but you are bound to do something else. Something hurts you, yet you know it shouldn't. You take certain things for granted, even when you know you should never take anything for granted." That is so true, and I can relate to it so much that it scares me. A lot. I mean right now, for example, I don't want to be upset. I keep telling myself to get over it. That's the logical, rational part of my mind. But the other side, the irrational, idealistic side, stays upset because it doesn't know how else to react to the situation. It's hurting me, but I know it shouldn't. There's also the whole college thing. Part of me wants to go off to college, and a big part of me wants to go to England, but the other part of me is scared and keeps pulling away from it. My mind is at a constant battle with itself, and I can't win... or lose. It's just always there. And that's cool.

So I know this is in agnostikah, and it doesn't really have anything to do with religion, but that's okay because I don't care. I think it's cool, and quite frankly, I don't feel like talking about religion. But this book did talk about the meaning of life.

"So many people walk around with a meaningless life. They seem half-asleep, even when they're busy doing things they think are important. This is because they're chasing the wrong things. The way you get meaning into your life is to devote yourself to loving others, devote yourself to your community around you, and devote yourself to creating something that gives you purpose and meaning." This is because love is important, and so is compassion. People need to help each other to ease suffering and to share pain and agony and stuff like that. "We really don't experience the world fully, because we're half-asleep, doing things we automatically think we have to do," like mindlessly paying bills, going to work every day, maintaining a schedule, going to bed, waking up, et cetera. It goes on forever. It's like we're in a trance, on auto-pilot, doing what we think we have to do. We don't do what we want to do, and we don't experience the things we want to experience. Life should be fun; it shouldn't be a burden. People should do what they love to do, not what they have to do.

It's interesting how sometimes "we feel lonely,... to the point of tears, but we don't let those tears come because we are not supposed to cry. Or how we feel a surge of love for [someone] but we don't say anything because we're frozen with the fear of what those words might do to the relationship." I'm sure we've all been there... I know I have. And sure, I regret it, but I have to move past it. People hold back their true feelings because they're afraid. Afraid of rejection, afraid of being alienated, afraid of being different. There's that song "big girls don't cry" and the idea that boys shouldn't cry. These ideas make it difficult for people to have emotions. Men don't want to be seen as "babies," so they suck it up and try to stay strong, when really all they need to do is cry. Crying is not a bad thing. It's a human thing.

It's also a human thing to crave human interaction and relationships. The book talks about a girl in the mental institution who would wake up in the morning, come out of her room, and go lie in the middle of the floor all day without saying a word. All she wanted was for someone to notice she was there. Everyone wants to be noticed, everyone wants to be cared about. It's human nature, and it makes life difficult sometimes when you feel like nobody is there and nobody cares. I feel that way a lot. I know I do.

The biggest part of human interaction is obviously communication. A lot of people have lost the ability to have a real conversation. "We are great at small talk: 'what do you do?' 'Where do you live?' But really listening to someone--without trying to sell them something, pick them up, recruit them, or get some kind of status in return--how often do we get this anymore?" It's true. Because "so many people with far smaller problems are so self-absorbed, their eyes glaze over if you speak for more than thirty seconds. They already have something else in mind--a friend to call, a fax to send, a lover they're daydreaming about. They only snap back to full attention when you finish talking, at which point they say 'Uh-huh' or 'yeah, really' and fake their way back to the moment." My favorite of their responses is "mmk." That quote just made me laugh because I'm guilty of doing just that. My phrase is usually "that's interesting" though. See, I know I do this. I hate this. I know I do it, but I don't want to do it. That's the whole tension of opposites thing again.

So, now let's discuss American culture (or lack there of). American culture sucks. It makes people feel bad about themselves, and it's just so overwhelming and stupid. People spend "so many hours on things that [mean] absolutely nothing to [them]: movie stars, supermodels, the latest noise out of Princess Di or Madonna...Why [do] we bother with all the distractions...? [People] give up days and weeks of their lives, addicted to someone else's drama." I don't get it. It would be better if people went out and created their own "drama" per se. People should stop taking their own lives and relationships and surroundings for granted and just let things happen.

So basically, the only way to get rid of this stupid culture is to go beyond it and create your own. "Don't... disregard every rule of your community.... Don't go around naked... don't run through red lights. [Obey] the little things... But the big things--how we think, what we value--those you choose yourself. You can't let anyone--or any society--determine those for you." I mean, it would be pretty neat if society didn't have any standards or any rules, but realistically that would never happen. I think it's just important for a lot of people to realize that they need to live for themselves. Oooh, I'm feeling some India.Arie lyrics coming on... "I was always too concerned about what everybody would think, but I can't live for everybody, I gotta live my life for me." Love.

So, we need to live for ourselves. This is one of the best words of advice from the book: "If you're trying to show off for people at the top, forget it. They will look down on you anyhow. And if you're trying to show off for people at the bottom, forget it. They will only envy you. Status will get you nowhere. Only an open heart will allow you to float equally between everyone." It just seems so real. Nobody around you is going to care about your status as a wealthy businessman. The people above you are still going to think you're stupid, and the people below you are just going to think you're stupid for trying to be better than you are. Now I'm making it sound like people are arranged by wealth, but they're not. It could also be something like intelligence, beauty, or creativity or something. I don't know. I guess "if we saw each other as more alike, we might be very eager to join in one big human family in this world, and to care about that family the way we care about our own."

So since I started this thing off about death, then got off on a few tangents, I will bring it back to death again. In a minute, maybe. The other advice I liked was "don't cling to things, because everything is impermanent" and "don't let go too soon, but don't hang on too long." I hung on too long. Now it hurts. Give people and things a chance, but don't cling to stupid things and don't waste your time on things that are going nowhere and apparently mean nothing.

Before you die, forgive yourself. Forgive yourself "for all the things [you] didn't do. All the things [you] should have done." Just don't "get stuck on the regrets of what should have happened." Go out and make those things happen. Life is what you make of it. So "make peace...with yourself and everyone around you." Life would just be so much better if people understood it. Not that I understand it because beliiiiieve me, I don't. At all.

"None of us can undo what we've done, or relive a life already recorded... [and] there is no such thing as 'too late' in life." So basically, as Auden said, "Love each other or perish."

Sorry that's so long; I had nothing better to do this weekend.
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truth, what's the big deal? [Feb. 20th, 2007|02:16 pm]
Agnostics.

deathbydsch
[Current Mood |contemplativeone of those life rocks ones]
[Current Music |Jack Johsnson]

In philosophy I just read a shit-ton of Descartes (60 pages is a shit ton when it comes to that dude). While reading this I re-realized something I have long thought but not fully realized.

Descartes wrote his meditations with one goal in mind: to find truth (existance of God in the end) through reason. He did some cool stuff but overall he pulled a lot of shit out of his ass and of course as philosophers do, no one agreed with his end result. Then, for the next forever people started up the conversation as to whether we could actually reason for any truth, etc. etc. Here is my revalation, I don't give a shit what truth is.

I mean, it doesn't effect my existance does it? If someone told me that my coffee was a figment of my imagination so what, I really don't care. Truth is not a hinge upon which I exist, it is a detail. Like, who had the best hair in the french revolution, that don't matter to me. Now, I think it is interesting and will study it with amusement because I like that stuff, but the answer has no great implications.

Even God, I dont care. The way I see it, if it was such a big deal to his self confidence that I believed in him then he'd do a better job of leaving a trace. Besides, there are a lot of great and brilliant people chilling in hell that I'd be happy to chill (or steam) with.

When I step back from existance that I get caught up in, the life of homework, bus fares, tuition bills, little sleep, lots of coffee, and good jazz. But when I step back and take a look at this from the outside of the box I realize what a dumbass I am being. I get so caught up in all this that I forget how fuckin' awesome this world is. Sure, AIDs sucks and Jesus Camp makes people dumb but really what does it matter in the end. I still have my life and my emotions and that is what matters. The only goal I will ever have in life is to be happy. And that comes just by realizing what I have and how little everything actually matters.

Dave Matthews said it well in his song "Pig" when he pointed out that

Oh, just love will open our eyes
Just love will put the hope back in our minds
Much more than we could ever know
Oh, so don't burn the day away
Don't burn the day away

Amen.
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(no subject) [Feb. 19th, 2007|04:58 pm]
Agnostics.

ben_jammin1832
I found this and thought you guys/gals might find it interesting/funny.
Enjoy
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
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Stuff. [Feb. 7th, 2007|10:52 pm]
Agnostics.

darbi_jo
[Current Mood |tiredtired]
[Current Music |she's the one - robbie williams]

I have a new thought, and I know it's not original. It's just a thought. I'm going off the whole "atheism as a religion" concept that we may have discussed earlier. Atheism has become a religion. I don't even want to consider myself atheist anymore. If everyone in the world were to become an atheist, I don't think the world would become a better place. I really don't. It would be just as bad as it is now. People would find something new to believe in, but atheists would look down on them. It would just be a religious minority swap.

I do see atheism as a religion. I don't like it. From now on, I want to consider myself just not religious at all. I don't care what people believe. I don't care what people don't believe. I don't believe in anything myself.

I think the world would only be better if people didn't even have to question whether there was a God or not, but I don't think it would necessarily be fun. If there didn't have to be such a thing as atheism or Christianity or Islam or Buddhism. If no such thing had ever existed, there would just be one less thing to fight about. If no religion had ever existed, it would be hard to get people to start following one, and I don't know, I just think the world would be a lot more cool.

If nobody told us that there was a God, would anybody even consider the possibility? God seems to me to be a manmade concept that has stuck around for a long time. But then again, somebody would come up with that idea because ideas all have to be born somewhere, right?

I've come to the conclusion that it's not Christianity that I hate. It's the traditions that go along with it. I think that believing is fine, but I also think that belief should be a personal thing. I don't think you should go around preaching to the world, and I don't think that you should try to convert people. I don't think you need to do all the tradition things to really be a Christian either. I just really don't get how some things can be put into God's hands, and I don't understand how you can think God will change things for you, yet still trust him when he doesn't. I guess I'm more for the deist idea, if you want to believe in God at all.

But on another note... What happened to all the people who died before Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sins? Did they just all go to hell?

Sorry this is not a high quality entry, but then again, are my entries ever high quality? Uh, no.
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Christian Ignorance [Feb. 1st, 2007|01:48 pm]
Agnostics.

deathbydsch
[Current Music |Dvorak Symphony 9 "aus den neuen welt" mv. 4]

All right guys here is my take on what I am reading in general. There seems this ovelying premise that is stated by Lucas: "Religious people believe because of their insecurities about life after death. It is very comforting for them to believe that something lies ahead for them after they die. Scientific people, however, are motivated by a drive to advance society and DISCOVER THE MEANING OF LIFE AND THE SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE."

Furthermore, I am going to put words in your mouth. If you disagree with any of these then dont worry about it, just let me know I'm making shit up and I will accept it.

"Christians are close minded. They don't look at the world like we do, but rather they believe in this nonsensical being just because that's what they are supposed to and they never stop to question like we "scientific people" have."

Now I will refute that statement as no better and in fact worse than the belief in God. Adding on "some" to the beginning of the quote is the first change I would like to make. There are many brilliant Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. in the world. We aren't the only intelligent life out there guys.

Next, change Christians to people and we have it. Some people, maybe more than not but we don't know that. How many sociological studies have you done on the open mindedness of christians and other life forms out there. Many agnostics are in it for the same religous twist that christians get off to.

Religion is funny word. Agnosticism and Atheism are at times just as religious as Christians. Religion doesn't just mean belief in God but a set of practices and rituals in accordance to a faith (roughly so). Have you heard of the new Christian movement of people who want to believe in God without religion. Those people are you guys without the belief in no God. They dislike the motions. The fact that so many people get into it just because the routine, the answers, the lifestyle is enjoyable. Because they have been brought up to believe that God is the answer and that the Bible is the truth to our existance and the way our lifestyle should be lead.

Many Christians (I've met many of them) have stopped to think about life and the meaning of it. Does God exist, why or why not. Why should I believe in him over others. It is shocking I know, I was in shock when I found them. You can meet so many goons who say things like "God exists because amazing things happen," "I almost lost my life to cancer but am alive so..." or they just stare at you blankly because they didnt know that question was askable.

I had my time where I was sure that no intelligent life lived in a church, but I met Zachary Scanlan, Chrissy Crosby, and many others who changed that for me. They will give you answers that you can't refute. That answer is faith. Faith is irrefutable and there is nothing wrong with it.

The reason I wrote the last post and have been attempting to question whether anything exists and then propose that it is all based on faith is because when you guys admit that faith is in everything in life, then the Christian idea will have a new strong foundation in your kitchen that I am yet to knock down. I still don't believe it, but I do believe that intelligence and Christianity are not mutually exclusive.

I don't mean this to sound like a "you guys should think more like me and you're all wrong" banter. I just want to propose a line of though that I suspect (don't propose or really argue has, just suspect) has crept into your line of sight. I thought all Christians are idiots for a good portion of my life after I began questioning and told my parents I didn't want to get confirmed. I just want to advise caution in not becoming just as close minded as the christians are on the other side.

Let me know if I'm wrong and I apologize in advance if I proposed a misconception of your views. I dont mean this to be attacking.
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Skepticism [Jan. 24th, 2007|06:11 pm]
Agnostics.

deathbydsch
Hey agnostikah folk I think you guys will like this stuff.

I apologize in advance for the lengthiness of this but it is just too good of stuff to abridge more than I'm already going to.

In my philosophy class we are studying a piece by Michel de Montaigne. Euro History may have thrown the name at you. Italian Renaissance, late 16th century. The piece he wrote that we are looking at was written in the midst of the 30 years war as much turmoil was going on about what it is right and shit. Well, I guess a more accurate assessment would be that they were picking a side and killing everyone who disagrees. Independent thought is scary you know.

Well, the philosophy that Montaigne is speaking from is called Pyrrhonian skepticism. Skepticism originated back in the Socrates time period as a practice of constantly challenging other ideas in order to keep reminding people how dumb they are and hopefully inspire them not to stop thinking and get stagnant in their views. Basically thinking you are right for too long is wrong.

Pyrrho on the other hand took it a different direction. In about 280 BC the guy used skepticism and question to make us realize that we dont know jack so to speak. Really our senses could be deceiving us. We dont know anything. And if we dont know anything then we can recognize that nothing really matters and live a life of complete tranquility. This guy (Pyrrho) would allegedly walk up to precipices with no fear and his friends would have to save him because he just didnt care. But he had no anxiety and was at complete peace with life as the story goes.

Now to Montaigne, he is getting into this and then applying this to religion in hope of moderating the fighting of the day. Though Montaigne doesnt support this complete skepticism view, he does think that people need to realize how little they actually know and maybe if they do that, it will make a lot less sense to kill people for thinking differently. I hope you can make sense out of that because that explanation was a bit sloppy.

Now, agnostics know all about applying skepticism to religion, and Montaigne does it with some good sarcasm and that insulting humor that we cynics love to listen to. Here are a few quotes that I liked.

"Who has persuaded him that the admirable motion of the celestial vault, the eternal light of those torches rolling so proudly above his head, the fearful movements of that infinite sea, were established and have lasted so many centuries for his convenience and his service? Is it possible to imagine anything so ridiculous as that this miserable and puny creature, who is not even master of himself, exposed to the attacks of all things, should call himself master of the universe, the least part of which is not in his power to know, much less understand?"

This is kind of random but cute, "When I play with my cat, who knows if I am not a pastime to her more than she is to me?"

He points out how, in being religious, ignorance is more important than intelligence, and blindness more than clear-sightedness and then pulls this one from First Corinthians in the bible, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

And lastly, my personal favorite is his challenging man to tell him what it is that man has learned or discovered, "I think he will confess to me, if he speaks in all conscience, that all the profit he has gained from so long a pursuit is to have learned to acknowledge his weakness. The ignorance that was naturally in us we have by long study confirmed and verified."

There you have it, I will leave you at that because this is probably already to long for your taste? Busy high school kids. Well back to school work, and let me know what you guys think. Do you actually "know" anything. Can you ever hold a viewpoint without somehow assuming something which isn't really known. i.e. assuming your eyes see reality in its complete form.
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